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highway_star
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
 Posted - 14 July 2012 : 01:28:41
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as for meltdown, teams in the SFL have spent years without old firm and TV money. We know only too well what it takes to operate on a shoe string.
The meltdown came from a threat by the SPL to stop paying contractual fees. Well, I assume Doncaster checked with his lawyers because if he does do this then he will be faced with a no-brainer, you-lose court case as he is contractually obliged to pay it!
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MikeM
Internationalist
United Kingdom
336 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 05:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ewen watt
Sporting integrity has been preserved -and I agree with the SFL decision-but at what cost? I fear financial meltdown beckons for some clubs and if attendances do not increase, as some predict, despite fans saying they will return, the Scottish football financial model is frankly unsustainable.
Ewen - we should be celebrating at least for this weekend. Take the blinkers off and don't believe the hype. 'Sporting fairness' (new SFL phrase) has won the day. If clubs have to find their correct level via 'financial meltdown' then so be it! Dundee have properly been through this trauma and if other clubs need to so we are on a sustainable footing then at least it would level the playing field at long last.
I believe we as a country are at the vanguard of this adjustment so in 5-10 years we will be back competitive in Europe. Our football was nearly killed off for good and yesterday we may just have stepped back from the brink...so ring out the bells!!
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MikeM
Internationalist
United Kingdom
336 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 05:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by NewportDee
[quote]Originally posted by don evans
as a fan and financial contributor to a fan-lead club, I don't remember being asked for my opinion, but hey that's Scottish football for you.
You make a good point - and as a 'fan led club' I think it is incumbent that our spokesmen are transparent and it is in the public domain which way we voted. I only hope we did the right thing.
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dmbuild66
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
788 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 10:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
quote:
Originally posted by NewportDee
[quote]Originally posted by don evans
as a fan and financial contributor to a fan-lead club, I don't remember being asked for my opinion, but hey that's Scottish football for you.
You make a good point - and as a 'fan led club' I think it is incumbent that our spokesmen are transparent and it is in the public domain which way we voted. I only hope we did the right thing.
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote! |
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Dubious Dave
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
105 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 10:54:22
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I havn't heard an amply proportioned lady sing yet.
Clyde FC remain even more convinced after yesterdays meeting that Sevco will not be permitted to play in SFL3.
I was wondering myself how SFL3 would cope with 11 teams anyway? Just a thought.
The collapse of Rangers might have serious implications for the game here but it is also an opportunity for improvement. Lets hope that the SFA and SPL see that and don't do anything too daft. |
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don evans
Internationalist
United Kingdom
318 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 13:59:57
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[/quote]
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote!
[/quote]
You're quite right but there was ample time to canvass opinion on the position the club should take with regard to where Rangers should play. Irrespective of the vote, we were always allowed to contribute to the debate at the meeting and I would want to know that the gist of that contribution was going to reflect the wishes of the fans. |
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wirraldee
Internationalist
United Kingdom
478 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 19:09:22
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On the STV website, the St Mirren chairman has been quoted as sounding off massively at the SFL clubs' decision to invite Newco Rangers into Div 3 rather than Div 1.
Some of the SPL clubs need a serious reality check. So they thought that the SFL clubs would just roll over, get their bellies tickled then throw integrity out the window and everything in the SPL would be fine and dandy in 12 months.
If I wasn't such a nice person, I'd almost wish for half the SPL to fall into administration in the next few weeks. Then they would have to cut their cloth to fit the way the SFL clubs have had to do.
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ewen watt
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
71 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 19:59:48
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highway-star.
1. It seems that i shall have to submit my future contributions to you in draft so that you can apply your self-professed, structural and editorial skills to my scribbles. Most of us have an opinion on
a. the ethics and footballing integrity of the game
b. voting rights and intentions and transparency thereof
d. the short/long term effects of the present organisational and financial shambles
e. the prospects of resolution.
f. the league in which DFC will play next season
2. The fact that you may disagree with me or others is what gives the forum some bite and interest.
3. I will creep back into my box and leave the field to you to continue your polemics. |
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Bob Laird
Dundee Legend
SCOTLAND
741 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 21:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by don evans
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote!
[/quote]
You're quite right but there was ample time to canvass opinion on the position the club should take with regard to where Rangers should play. Irrespective of the vote, we were always allowed to contribute to the debate at the meeting and I would want to know that the gist of that contribution was going to reflect the wishes of the fans.
[/quote]
Have to agree with Don here.
Dundee were under the impression long before the votes were required that they had a vote. Then they were told under dodgy circumstances they weren't allowed a vote.
No matter which scenario prevailed the fans should still have been canvassed for their opinions, (At least with no vote we would still have had an opinion of how we would have voted if allowed.)
if we truly want to keep using the PR spin of being a fans run club. Which technically we aren't anymore, as we voted this guarantee away in a previous dubious vote.
The board have a tough job and I don't advocate the fans have to vote for everything, but this was a major decision concerning not only Dundee but Scottish Football and to not seek your fans opinion was misguided and paramount to mistrust of their opinions being out of step with the board.
Our own board are not perfect in all that they do, but it is tiresome reading the higher than though attitude some fans have of them and constant criticism from others. The board genuinely try to do what's in the Clubs best interest, and most of the time I would agree with their decisions, but in my opinion they made a big error in this instance.
Lets hope it's another part of the learning curve which they will take on board come future decisions, which I'm sure are still to materialise from this whole mis-handled debacle.
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doubleshuffle
Under 21's Squad Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 14 July 2012 : 21:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by dmbuild66
quote:
Originally posted by MikeM
quote:
Originally posted by NewportDee
[quote]Originally posted by don evans
as a fan and financial contributor to a fan-lead club, I don't remember being asked for my opinion, but hey that's Scottish football for you.
You make a good point - and as a 'fan led club' I think it is incumbent that our spokesmen are transparent and it is in the public domain which way we voted. I only hope we did the right thing.
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote!
I do hope that we voted with the majority.
If it transpires that the DFC vote was one of the minority 5 and Mr Gardiner cast the vote on his own initiative, I see no future for him at Dens Park.
If he was instructed by the Board to vote in the minority, there will be hell to pay. |
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dmbuild66
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
788 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 11:04:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Laird
quote:
Originally posted by don evans
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote!
You're quite right but there was ample time to canvass opinion on the position the club should take with regard to where Rangers should play. Irrespective of the vote, we were always allowed to contribute to the debate at the meeting and I would want to know that the gist of that contribution was going to reflect the wishes of the fans.
[/quote]
Have to agree with Don here.
Dundee were under the impression long before the votes were required that they had a vote. Then they were told under dodgy circumstances they weren't allowed a vote.
No matter which scenario prevailed the fans should still have been canvassed for their opinions, (At least with no vote we would still have had an opinion of how we would have voted if allowed.)
if we truly want to keep using the PR spin of being a fans run club. Which technically we aren't anymore, as we voted this guarantee away in a previous dubious vote.
The board have a tough job and I don't advocate the fans have to vote for everything, but this was a major decision concerning not only Dundee but Scottish Football and to not seek your fans opinion was misguided and paramount to mistrust of their opinions being out of step with the board.
Our own board are not perfect in all that they do, but it is tiresome reading the higher than though attitude some fans have of them and constant criticism from others. The board genuinely try to do what's in the Clubs best interest, and most of the time I would agree with their decisions, but in my opinion they made a big error in this instance.
Lets hope it's another part of the learning curve which they will take on board come future decisions, which I'm sure are still to materialise from this whole mis-handled debacle.
[/quote]
It would be almost impossible for the board to 'canvass opinion' on every decision they have to make, and why should they. We elected them to run the club, lets leave them to do this! The board only had to look on this forum to see the opinion of DFC fans. How many other clubs truly canvassed opinion from their fans - very few me thinks.
You go on to use words and phrases for the board such as 'misguided' 'paramount to mistrust' 'errors' and 'mis-handled' etc and then go on to knock fans that criticise the board. Is this not what you are doing? or am I getting all this wrong, I apologise if this is the case.
I would agree the board have a hard job, and in some cases an impossible job, but lets leave them to run the club the the best way they see fit. I think in the main they are doing a great job under difficult circumstances at this moment, but if they have to consult the fans on every so called big decision, they would hardly be doing the job they were elected to do. |
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JohnB1987
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
1044 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 14:07:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dmbuild66
It would be almost impossible for the board to 'canvass opinion' on every decision they have to make, and why should they. We elected them to run the club, lets leave them to do this! The board only had to look on this forum to see the opinion of DFC fans. How many other clubs truly canvassed opinion from their fans - very few me thinks.
You go on to use words and phrases for the board such as 'misguided' 'paramount to mistrust' 'errors' and 'mis-handled' etc and then go on to knock fans that criticise the board. Is this not what you are doing? or am I getting all this wrong, I apologise if this is the case.
I would agree the board have a hard job, and in some cases an impossible job, but lets leave them to run the club the the best way they see fit. I think in the main they are doing a great job under difficult circumstances at this moment, but if they have to consult the fans on every so called big decision, they would hardly be doing the job they were elected to do.
This isn't just any "so-called big decision" though. It's the biggest issue that's faced Scottish football for many a long year. Several of the SPL clubs consulted their fans extensively prior to their vote, and a good few of the SFL clubs conducted polls of their supporters also. If it's good enough for them, why not us?
The longer this drags on with no comment from the board on what should be a fairly straightforward statement to put out, the more concerned i am that we were one of the five that were prepared to cave in to the demand for a place in Division One. If we voted against, why not just say so?
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don evans
Internationalist
United Kingdom
318 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 16:39:21
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It would be almost impossible for the board to 'canvass opinion' on every decision they have to make, and why should they.
[/quote]
Oh come on, that's not what's been suggested by any post I've read. As has already been stated elsewhere on this thread, we're not talking about canvassing fans for their preference on who supplies the bovril. As far as I'm concerned, this was an issue of such significance that it merited some form of consultation, or at the very least a reasonable amount of clear communication. We've had neither. You've got a different view and that's fine but it doesn't negate the view (expressed by many) that we should never have been giving any consideration to supporting the bid to slide Rangers into any league other than the 3rd Division. |
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Bob Laird
Dundee Legend
SCOTLAND
741 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 16:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by dmbuild66
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Laird
quote:
Originally posted by don evans
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote!
You're quite right but there was ample time to canvass opinion on the position the club should take with regard to where Rangers should play. Irrespective of the vote, we were always allowed to contribute to the debate at the meeting and I would want to know that the gist of that contribution was going to reflect the wishes of the fans.
Have to agree with Don here.
Dundee were under the impression long before the votes were required that they had a vote. Then they were told under dodgy circumstances they weren't allowed a vote.
No matter which scenario prevailed the fans should still have been canvassed for their opinions, (At least with no vote we would still have had an opinion of how we would have voted if allowed.)
if we truly want to keep using the PR spin of being a fans run club. Which technically we aren't anymore, as we voted this guarantee away in a previous dubious vote.
The board have a tough job and I don't advocate the fans have to vote for everything, but this was a major decision concerning not only Dundee but Scottish Football and to not seek your fans opinion was misguided and paramount to mistrust of their opinions being out of step with the board.
Our own board are not perfect in all that they do, but it is tiresome reading the higher than though attitude some fans have of them and constant criticism from others. The board genuinely try to do what's in the Clubs best interest, and most of the time I would agree with their decisions, but in my opinion they made a big error in this instance.
Lets hope it's another part of the learning curve which they will take on board come future decisions, which I'm sure are still to materialise from this whole mis-handled debacle.
[/quote]
It would be almost impossible for the board to 'canvass opinion' on every decision they have to make, and why should they. We elected them to run the club, lets leave them to do this! The board only had to look on this forum to see the opinion of DFC fans. How many other clubs truly canvassed opinion from their fans - very few me thinks.
You go on to use words and phrases for the board such as 'misguided' 'paramount to mistrust' 'errors' and 'mis-handled' etc and then go on to knock fans that criticise the board. Is this not what you are doing? or am I getting all this wrong, I apologise if this is the case.
I would agree the board have a hard job, and in some cases an impossible job, but lets leave them to run the club the the best way they see fit. I think in the main they are doing a great job under difficult circumstances at this moment, but if they have to consult the fans on every so called big decision, they would hardly be doing the job they were elected to do.
[/quote]
Let me clarify my comments regarding this issue.
It would not be impossible to canvass the opinion of the fans as all members of D4Life Trust and Share holders could be contacted as was achieved for the vote to allow the fans share holding to drop below 50%. (This forum is not the concensus of the majority of fans, just those that have an opinion who wish to share it on this medium)
It's not our issue if other clubs did not canvass their fans, but I'm pretty sure that those that claim as we do, to be fans owned did canvass theirs.
I would never advocate that the fans have to be consulted on every matter, but this I believe is a decision that has ramifications for the whole of Scottish Football and not just Dundee Football Club. If this didn't deserve the fans input from a fans owned club, then I don't know what would.
I stated that in this instance I believe the board were mis-guided in not seeking the fans opinion, if we don't need to be consulted then we would be as well going back to the Staus Quo of Rangers and Celtic both in the SPL with the other clubs having no real power in any votes.
Lets face it we are all in this mess because we the fans left the elected members of the various Associations to just get on with it. Not to mention our own club twice.
I have agreed with the boards decisions mostly in the past, but in this instance I feel strongly enough to say I think they got it wrong in not seeking the fans opinion in this case.
If you re-read my post, you will see I was criticising some fans for continually criticising the board and others who believe the board can do no wrong. Some I feel have axes to grind whilst others seem to think the board are beyond reproach.
No one is all bad, just as no one is always right, especially when it becomes a decision by committee. Most fans on this forum have a balanced view and will find something they don't agree with as well as things they do agree with. I wouldn't dream of criticing anyone for having a contrary opinion, it's just in my opinion some seem to continually be on the attack or defence of the Board needless of what decision they make.
My point regarding mis-handled debacle was not aimed at our board, but the governing bodies.
I see nothing wrong in the Board seeking a sanity check from time to time from the supporters, as it's easy to become detached from the fans feelings. The SFA are a prime example of losing touch with its Grass roots.
Dundee are in a very good position for this process with having both D4life and DSA committees with which they can seek opinion from their memberships. Unfortunately these avenues were not used properly previously, hence the shock of a 2nd Administration.
David, I hope this clarifies my opinion in relation to the board and the fans for you. It was not meant to send mixed contradictory messages.
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Edited by - Bob Laird on 15 July 2012 16:56:55 |
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andersong
Dundee Legend
SCOTLAND
2675 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 17:39:00
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Pars had a survey on their website and I know a few Dees who contributed to that so Pars efforts were sabotaged by some of us and fans of other clubs.
It would have to be a postal survey to DFCSS members or just take a view from this site which is difficult.
Again maybe a simple thread on here would have sufficed with 2/3 straightforwarsd questions? But again open to infiltration. |
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dmbuild66
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
788 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 20:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Bob Laird
quote:
Originally posted by dmbuild66
[quote]Originally posted by Bob Laird
[quote]Originally posted by don evans
Let me clarify my comments regarding this issue.
It would not be impossible to canvass the opinion of the fans as all members of D4Life Trust and Share holders could be contacted as was achieved for the vote to allow the fans share holding to drop below 50%. (This forum is not the concensus of the majority of fans, just those that have an opinion who wish to share it on this medium)
It's not our issue if other clubs did not canvass their fans, but I'm pretty sure that those that claim as we do, to be fans owned did canvass theirs.
Lets face it we are all in this mess because we the fans left the elected members of the various Associations to just get on with it. Not to mention our own club twice.
I have agreed with the boards decisions mostly in the past, but in this instance I feel strongly enough to say I think they got it wrong in not seeking the fans opinion in this case.
Dundee are in a very good position for this process with having both D4life and DSA committees with which they can seek opinion from their memberships. Unfortunately these avenues were not used properly previously, hence the shock of a 2nd Administration.
David, I hope this clarifies my opinion in relation to the board and the fans for you. It was not meant to send mixed contradictory messages.
Thanks for the clarification.
The point I was trying to make (badly) was that we have an elected board whom one would hope we can now trust. On that board (correct me if I'm wrong) we have representatives for the fans in the shape of either D4life or DSA or both. Now I would have hoped Scot would have crossed their desks asking their opinion. Having done that I would suggest he has a cross section of all DFC fans thoughts. I don't expect the board to consult me as my representative is on the board.
It appears that there is still a lot of mistrust leftover from 2 admins - its time to bury the ghosts.
I would also like to know how DFC voted but I'm not gonna loose any sleep over it if I never find out.
Lets give Scot and the rest of the board room to manoeuvre without continual mistrust and criticism. I for one think they are doing well but only time will tell.
Cheers Dave |
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bratt75
First Team Player
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - 15 July 2012 : 21:31:20
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DM build, well said, couldn't agree more with your last post. Mistrust, although understandable given 2 admins, can only be harmful to the running of the club. Lets put our trust in the people who now run our club....surely there are now strong enough safeguards in place with sufficient board representation for the supporters. The current position of Scottish football may well be a fantastic opportunity for the new streamline DFC to flourish in the SPL (if we are given the opportunity which I expect us to be). If in SPL, I think we will be one of the best positioned clubs with no debt and operating within our means.
Let the board get on with it and see us fly.... |
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highway_star
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 16 July 2012 : 09:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by ewen watt
highway-star.
1. It seems that i shall have to submit my future contributions to you in draft so that you can apply your self-professed, structural and editorial skills to my scribbles. Most of us have an opinion on
a. the ethics and footballing integrity of the game
b. voting rights and intentions and transparency thereof
d. the short/long term effects of the present organisational and financial shambles
e. the prospects of resolution.
f. the league in which DFC will play next season
2. The fact that you may disagree with me or others is what gives the forum some bite and interest.
3. I will creep back into my box and leave the field to you to continue your polemics.
z. Write what you want mate. x. I have never stated any time that have some problem with your opinions. n. most of what you have replied on is irrelevant to the point I made. n(2a). It appears that asking for it to be in a reasonable,readable format is beyond the pail. c) arent unreadable paragraphs great! we should all write like this, p) i) it would be really good
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aunty mo
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
136 Posts |
Posted - 16 July 2012 : 10:21:38
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The man got told at 4.50 pm that we had to vote the next day just before a meeting how could he get that ane sorted!!miracle workers we aint!..quote:
Originally posted by Bob Laird
quote:
Originally posted by don evans
I don't think DFC had time to ask our opinion as it seems we only got the vote the day before voting, having previously been told we had no vote!
You're quite right but there was ample time to canvass opinion on the position the club should take with regard to where Rangers should play. Irrespective of the vote, we were always allowed to contribute to the debate at the meeting and I would want to know that the gist of that contribution was going to reflect the wishes of the fans.
[/quote]
Have to agree with Don here.
Dundee were under the impression long before the votes were required that they had a vote. Then they were told under dodgy circumstances they weren't allowed a vote.
No matter which scenario prevailed the fans should still have been canvassed for their opinions, (At least with no vote we would still have had an opinion of how we would have voted if allowed.)
if we truly want to keep using the PR spin of being a fans run club. Which technically we aren't anymore, as we voted this guarantee away in a previous dubious vote.
The board have a tough job and I don't advocate the fans have to vote for everything, but this was a major decision concerning not only Dundee but Scottish Football and to not seek your fans opinion was misguided and paramount to mistrust of their opinions being out of step with the board.
Our own board are not perfect in all that they do, but it is tiresome reading the higher than though attitude some fans have of them and constant criticism from others. The board genuinely try to do what's in the Clubs best interest, and most of the time I would agree with their decisions, but in my opinion they made a big error in this instance.
Lets hope it's another part of the learning curve which they will take on board come future decisions, which I'm sure are still to materialise from this whole mis-handled debacle.
[/quote] |
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The SFL Vote
