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Zalkawe
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
 Posted - 20 August 2012 : 13:28:57
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I'm finally old enough to provide my own Dundee nostalgia thread (at the tender age of just 28 I might add).
I was thinking back to the last time we were promoted. Nobody thought we were good enough. This was compounded by the fact that we lost our first three games, scoring zero times in total. People started to speculate that we just couldn't handle the giants of the modern game that are the mainstay of the SPL. Giants like St Johnstone and Dunfermline, both of whom had run rings around us in those opening three fixtures. In our next game, at Dens, Eddie Anand scored a last minute penalty against Celtic to seal an unlikely draw. I remember Rab Douglas having a great game in goal and Barry Smith probably played alright as well. Eventually we finished in the top half, thanks largely to the fact that we always seemed to beat Hearts.
To be honest I don't really have much time for nostalgia, what our results were back then have precisely no bearing on what they are now (Big Rab and Barry's experience aside perhaps).
However that doesn't change my opinion that there is no need to panic yet, we handled SPL sides in the cup last season and we will handle them again. I play a lot of team sport, mainly hockey but elevens football as well, and I've been promoted (and relegated) enough times to know that when teams change level, even in the ameteurs, it often takes time to adjust. Just look at Rangers, a team full of internationals who couldn't beat the same team we were moaning about being unable to beat a month ago. The worst thing to do in that period is get on a squads back because it reinforces any lack of self belief they might have, give them time to get up to speed.
The first time we open the scoring could change everything.
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Edited by - Zalkawe on 20 August 2012 13:35:19 |
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leemac
Fringe Player
144 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 14:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zalkawe
I'm finally old enough to provide my own Dundee nostalgia thread (at the tender age of just 28 I might add).
I was thinking back to the last time we were promoted. Nobody thought we were good enough. This was compounded by the fact that we lost our first three games, scoring zero times in total. People started to speculate that we just couldn't handle the giants of the modern game that are the mainstay of the SPL. Giants like St Johnstone and Dunfermline, both of whom had run rings around us in those opening three fixtures. In our next game, at Dens, Eddie Anand scored a last minute penalty against Celtic to seal an unlikely draw. I remember Rab Douglas having a great game in goal and Barry Smith probably played alright as well. Eventually we finished in the top half, thanks largely to the fact that we always seemed to beat Hearts.
To be honest I don't really have much time for nostalgia, what our results were back then have precisely no bearing on what they are now (Big Rab and Barry's experience aside perhaps).
However that doesn't change my opinion that there is no need to panic yet, we handled SPL sides in the cup last season and we will handle them again. I play a lot of team sport, mainly hockey but elevens football as well, and I've been promoted (and relegated) enough times to know that when teams change level, even in the ameteurs, it often takes time to adjust. Just look at Rangers, a team full of internationals who couldn't beat the same team we were moaning about being unable to beat a month ago. The worst thing to do in that period is get on a squads back because it reinforces any lack of self belief they might have, give them time to get up to speed.
The first time we open the scoring could change everything.
It took us 5 games that season to score our 1st goal and register our 1st point and 6 games for our 1st win.That bad run included a League Cup loss at home to Alloa!!!!!!!.Long,long way to go yet.Keep the faith. |
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darkbloo
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2561 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 15:55:45
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| You know things are bad when 'keep the faith' gets pulled out. |
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Revdee
First Team Player
United Kingdom
290 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 16:19:43
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Very good post Zalkawe. We seem to have a lot of panic merchants at the moment....
Darkbloo - If we dont keep the faith, what do we do... just keep crticising everybody? We have played 3 games!?!? Not looking great I have to say, but football is a funny old game as Zalkawe has highlighted. |
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darkbloo
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2561 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 17:22:19
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| It's not about faith it's about the talents of Barry and the players. There is a difference between supporting the team and just having a silly 'everything will be ok' fairy tale approach. I support the team, will everything work out, I don't know and neither does anyone else. |
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leemac
Fringe Player
144 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 20:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by darkbloo
It's not about faith it's about the talents of Barry and the players. There is a difference between supporting the team and just having a silly 'everything will be ok' fairy tale approach. I support the team, will everything work out, I don't know and neither does anyone else.
Keep the faith is just my way of saying stay positive.For the most part i'm pretty much an optimist when it comes to the Dee.Dont know where the "fairy tale approach" comes from. |
Edited by - leemac on 20 August 2012 21:39:56 |
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darkbloo
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2561 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 21:47:14
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| Staying positive is fine but my point is fans discussing the games and giving opinions on them is valid. Over the top criticism will be moderated out but there's too many want to stifle discussion every time someone comes out with any opinion. |
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darkbloo
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2561 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2012 : 21:59:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Revdee
If we dont keep the faith, what do we do... just keep crticising everybody?
Can I just say to that, even if someone had a complete lack of trust in Barry Smith and half the squad for example, why would that mean they will be criticising everybody.
I had that lack of faith in Duffy when he was manager but I still turned up every week and cheered the team on. |
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Zalkawe
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2012 : 10:23:21
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I’m not really advocating “keeping the faith” or anything so existential, what I would say is have some patience. Before the season began everybody said it would be long and hard, no-one should then be surprised at our current position. To be honest I was delighted with a point on the opening day.
Everybody is hurting right now because we got spanked by United but the (slightly unfortunate) truth is they are one of the best sides in this league. It actually kind of worries me because on current evidence I think they have a decent shot at Celtic. Regardless of that it is ridiculous to be talking about six point must wins at this stage, as some are, we have shown in cup ties in recent seasons that on our day we are a match for most teams. There are definitely points available at Dens this weekend but there are points to be had in lots of places.
The ability of a team is not a fixed point it is determined by lots of things including confidence, technical skill, form, support, fitness and habit. At the moment it is probably the first of these that is the most important; our players and management have to believe they can compete in this league. For the most part I think they do, when we’ve been beaten this season they’ve made all the right noises, saying they would look at their own performances and trying to work out where the problems lie. The surest way to shatter that belief would be to suddenly replace a whole group of them (like the entire defence as some seem to be advocating). These are players who have been with the club during a very difficult period and you would effectively be telling them on mass that they aren’t good enough; their attitude would be that they haven’t been given a chance and they would be justified in that.
None of that is not to say there can’t be change but it must be gradual, I would ask anyone who thinks otherwise to show me an example of when bringing in a bunch of “better” signings in a single close season has brought immediate improvement. In fact don’t bother, there are probably one or two examples, but if you do find one could throw ten to the contrary back at you, including one from our recent history. Far more often than leading to improvement I actually think it kills the contract of trust between players and manager and sometimes the whole season. Maybe we need a body or two, but it should just be one or two and they should be carefully chosen. Have a little patience.
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Revdee
First Team Player
United Kingdom
290 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2012 : 12:39:11
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| Well said Zalkawe.... |
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Mascot Maniac
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
983 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2012 : 13:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by darkbloo
You know things are bad when 'keep the faith' gets pulled out.
Or George Michael at a Closing Ceremony :0o
Jings eh'm still in shock at that! |
Edited by - Mascot Maniac on 21 August 2012 13:31:44 |
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Zalkawe
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2012 : 13:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mascot Maniac
quote:
Originally posted by darkbloo
You know things are bad when 'keep the faith' gets pulled out.
Or George Michael at a Closing Ceremony :0o
Jings eh'm still in shock at that!
I've changed my mind, I now think we should sign George Michael (and eleven pairs of ear muffs).
We could let him do pre-match entertainment then when it's time for the teams to come out I'm pretty sure the opposition will have left. |
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leemac
Fringe Player
144 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2012 : 13:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Revdee
Well said Zalkawe....
Ditto. |
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acelarc
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2370 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2012 : 23:23:08
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People are desparate not to get relegated back to the dire league that is SFL1. Given the fact we couldn't get out of the league for 7 seasons on our own merit it's hardly surprising that 1 point from 3 games, 2 of which could arguably be perceived as bottom 6 encounters, doesn't help to inspire confidence. No one denies that it cant have been an easy situation for Barry and co and the majority of the team were signed for the first division, but when people are genuinely worried about a visit from Ross County it's hardly surprising there is a feeling of gloom about the place. People who don't think Saturday isn't a must win, even at this early stage is deluded. We need to prove early in the season that we are not going to be pushovers orvthat is exactly what we will be. If we don't sign any more players before the window shuts then so be it. Barry then has to prove himself a true great by getting a squad aimed for a lower league to hold their own in the SPL.
For what its worth i actually have a good feeling about the Ross County game. God knows why!! Perhaps the disappointment of the Derby and the manner of the defeat will galvanise the players and illustrate in no uncertain terms the magnitude of the task ahead. I'm pretty sure Barry will be working hard on the defence in light of his post match comments and i would like to think the Strikers will be giving the training goals laldy this week. I will be hugely disappointed if we don't keep a clean sheet this week, county haven't exactly been banging them in themselves. A win would burst the County bubble and give a much needed boost to the whole club. Here's hoping!! |
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Zalkawe
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2012 : 09:41:00
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quote:
Originally posted by acelarc
People who don't think Saturday isn't a must win, even at this early stage is deluded.
Sorry you're going to have to back this up beyond just stating it as if it were fact.
Why can we not stay up if we do not beat Ross County on Saturday? That is what "must win" means, otherwise we’re bust. I don’t think it is the case because there will still be about 35 games to play, several of which will be against opposition we’ve already proven we can take points off. Meanwhile as the team gets up to SPL pace we should improve. What if we lost on Saturday but then drew two games in Dingwall and won the other at home, giving us 6 points to three against County? Would we definitely go down then? Why could that not happen?
Stop being so melodramatic, obviously it would be a great boost to beat County on Saturday, but if we don’t we live to fight another day. I would however love to see us score.
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Edited by - Zalkawe on 22 August 2012 13:26:14 |
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guinness
Internationalist
United Kingdom
428 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2012 : 13:50:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Zalkawe
What if we lost on Saturday but then drew two games in Dingwall and won the other at home, giving us 6 points to three against County?
Is that not 5 points apiece? |
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leemac
Fringe Player
144 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2012 : 14:12:53
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"People who don't think Saturday isn't a must win, even at this early stage is deluded".
Pretty silly statement to make at this stage of the season,acelarc.I too have a good feeling about Sat and how ironic it would be to beat them after where the 2 teams finished last season.If we lose though we will NOT be automatically relegated.FACT. |
Edited by - leemac on 22 August 2012 15:56:24 |
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Bill Cairns
First Team Player
United Kingdom
183 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2012 : 15:41:31
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Eh, 5 points each I make that !, however that kind of creative arithmetic might be useful in our quest to stay up. You've got the job of dishing out the points Zal
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Edited by - Bill Cairns on 22 August 2012 15:56:24 |
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Zalkawe
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2012 : 16:30:43
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| Oops, well at least my righteous indignation is intact, if not my maths. |
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acelarc
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2370 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2012 : 22:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zalkawe
quote:
Originally posted by acelarc
People who don't think Saturday isn't a must win, even at this early stage is deluded.
Sorry you're going to have to back this up beyond just stating it as if it were fact.
I did back it up and i stated it as an opinion. If you want a fact, we are currently 12th in the league. Another fact is, if we lose on Saturday and unless St johnstone ship a few goals. We will still be bottom with Hearts, Motherwell and Celtic up next with our next best chance of 3 points against St Johnstone in game 8. If we had 1 point and been competitive in our last two games as opposed to being brushed aside with woefull defending then there would be less cause for concern. Bottom line is we are favourites for relegation (another fact) and the reason IMO that the next game is vital is nothing to do with what stage of the season we are at but who the opposition is. We need to stamp our authority on those teams that are relying on us to be the whipping boys. Id be surprised and a bit disappointed if Barry Smith didn't view this as a vital fixture even at this early stage. |
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Zalkawe
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 23 August 2012 : 21:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by acelarc
quote:
Originally posted by Zalkawe
quote:
Originally posted by acelarc
People who don't think Saturday isn't a must win, even at this early stage is deluded.
Sorry you're going to have to back this up beyond just stating it as if it were fact.
I did back it up and i stated it as an opinion. If you want a fact, we are currently 12th in the league. Another fact is, if we lose on Saturday and unless St johnstone ship a few goals. We will still be bottom with Hearts, Motherwell and Celtic up next with our next best chance of 3 points against St Johnstone in game 8. If we had 1 point and been competitive in our last two games as opposed to being brushed aside with woefull defending then there would be less cause for concern. Bottom line is we are favourites for relegation (another fact) and the reason IMO that the next game is vital is nothing to do with what stage of the season we are at but who the opposition is. We need to stamp our authority on those teams that are relying on us to be the whipping boys. Id be surprised and a bit disappointed if Barry Smith didn't view this as a vital fixture even at this early stage.
I would be a massive boost to win, but if we don't we're not down and the vast majority of the season is still to play, it therefore it really isn't a "must win" for me. We will probably get three other chances to stamp our authority on Ross County and thirty plus more on other teams. For myself I think a score draw with a later equaliser (ala 98/99) would be almost as good. I certainly think it would be "deluded" to throw in the towel on Saturday, regardless of the result.
I do agree it's important, let's hope we do win and make this entire conversation redudant. |
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1998/99
