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dundeederryboy82
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
531 Posts |
 Posted - 01 May 2007 : 16:31:20
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Now that the season is over, there's a few things that need to be said about the promotion issue.
It's an absolute travesty and just a disgrace that a team like Gretna will be playing SPL football next season. They have not progressed as a club, and will be found severely wanting next season as the likes of Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen and the Forth 2 will show. It's going to be a repeat of the Livingston fiasco. They were every football journo's favourite club, and look where they've ended up. It's just plain wrong that a club who can only get about 1500 when they're playing in their town, who knows what kind of crowd they will get when they have to travel to Motherwell for home matches. Hopefully, the media will get sick of them.
Since there is little or no chance of SPL2 being in place anytime soon, can the SPL and the SFL please sort out the home fixtures between Dundee and United for next season? It's not difficult to sort out 2 teams from the one city. They can do it with the Old Firm, Hearts and Hibs but not Dundee and United. If they can't do a simple thing like that, then they should leave the fixtures to the SFA.
If we can get the right mixture of experience and youth next season, then there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we will challenge for the title. One thing that we need to sort out is our away form. It is still dismal. Improving, but not good enough if we are to challenge for promotion. I would love nothing better than at this time next season to be celebrating a title triumph in the Derry10 years after we celebrated the last one!!
We love you Dundee, we do... |
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est1893
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
110 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 17:47:55
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I say good luck to Gretna, it just shows what ambition and application can do, its just a pity Miles wasn't a dee. It takes more than money alone to succeed.
Maybe it wont go for them and maybe they wont financially enrich the SPL, but it is one good fairytail. |
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HulltoonBlue
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
99 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 19:03:00
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| Gretnas average is about 1000 or so, St.Johnstones about 2000 or so, what difference did it make who went up. |
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Far away DEE
Internationalist
United Kingdom
458 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 19:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by HulltoonBlue
Gretnas average is about 1000 or so, St.Johnstones about 2000 or so, what difference did it make who went up.
Not alot as who ever went up will be right back down and could find themselves in a right mess financialy like we did.
I dio agree with derryboy Gretna will bring nothing(not just no support) to the SPl and will find themselves on the wrong side of some heavy defeats. That is not just sour grapes either I honestlt think they will find it very hard up there with the big boys and will be found wanting |
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struan_blairdee
Internationalist
United Kingdom
396 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 19:16:14
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the league never lies ...... therefore they deserved to go up. fans dont win you leagues it splayers that do so they deserve it.
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acelarc
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2370 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 19:44:07
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I'm glad they are out of our division. If they had missed out on the last day then you can guarantee Brookes would have chucked more money at them making our season even harder next year. Only a few dressing room bust ups stopped them winning this division by a barrowload of points.
Whoever comes down will be at a financial advantage with the umberella payment and or StMirrens income from selling their ground and Dunfermlines Scottish cup money. However Partick, Livvi and DFC know from bitter experience that coming down can be a hard shift. I doubt if there will be any runaway winners next year and it may well be a last game shootout between 3 or 4 clubs. You may also find that one or two of the bigger clubs find themselves in play-off territory so it should make for an interesting season. |
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dfc_derry_diehard
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
2680 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 21:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by HulltoonBlue
Gretnas average is about 1000 or so, St.Johnstones about 2000 or so, what difference did it make who went up.
A huge different. Gretna will be travelling to Motherwell for home games and I can't see them having very high "home" gates.
St. Johnstone would most certainly have a higher average if they were an SPL team, just like ourselves. I believe the Saints would have a similar average to the likes of Motherwell, St. Mirren and Dunfermline. |
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guinness
Internationalist
United Kingdom
428 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2007 : 22:35:13
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"It's an absolute travesty and just a disgrace that a team like Gretna will be playing SPL football next season".
Why?They won the league fair and square.
"They have not progressed as a club"
What do you mean?They have won every league challenge put in front of them over the last 3 years.
"It's going to be a repeat of the Livingston fiasco".
What Fiasco?They won the League cup and got into Europe whilst in the SPL.
A lot of people seem to think that if you don't get an "x" amount of supporters then you don't deserve to be in the league.So what if Dundee get 3 times the home support of Gretna;it's what you do on the park that counts.
Gretna won the league fair and square,maybe due to Brooks' money,but that's nobody's business but his own.
I say,good luck to them. |
Edited by - guinness on 02 May 2007 00:22:27 |
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Blueday
First Team Player
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 00:02:34
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Gretna got there on merit - i.e. they got more points than anybody else. Whether they were bankrolled or not is irrelevant, As for they "have not progressed" as a club - bunkum ! They realised during the campaign that their aging side would not cut it in the 1st div and made the changes accordingly, ditching players which we would`ve gladly accepetd as stop-gaps - Tosh for one..
I agree they have gone as far as they can and their type of investment is unsustainable, but they got more points than us and deserve their time in the sun. We`ll be back - they won`t once their bubble bursts ! |
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DeeScribe
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
1522 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 00:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
It's an absolute travesty and just a disgrace that a team like Gretna will be playing SPL football next season.
A travesty AND a disgrace? Depends on your definition of travesty and disgrace. Yours clearly differ from mine. Last time I checked, the team who accrue the most points win the league and are promoted. The teams who accrue less points . . . er, don't and aren't. Simple as that. The league table doesn't lie. You congratulate the winners, and move on.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
They have not progressed as a club
Apart from winning three promotions in a row and losing a Cup Final on penalties . . .
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
and will be found severely wanting next season as the likes of Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen and the Forth 2 will show.
Maybe, but there are six other teams in the league, and I'd give Gretna a pretty good squeak of finishing above a couple assuming they bring in a few players. I'll be having a decent bet on them staying up if anyone wants to accommodate me on Betfair next season.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
It's going to be a repeat of the Livingston fiasco.
The fiasco where they finished third in the league and won the League Cup. Or some other fiasco?
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
They were every football journo's favourite club, and look where they've ended up.
Eight points behind Dundee.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
It's just plain wrong that a club who can only get about 1500 when they're playing in their town, who knows what kind of crowd they will get when they have to travel to Motherwell for home matches.
So you're saying that we should do away with meritocracy, and promote teams purely on the basis of how many fans they have? Really? Seriously? Small clubs are forever being slagged off for not spending money and showing no ambition - one comes along and does just that, and gets slaughtered for spending too much money and being too ambitious!!!
If Dundee couldn't go up, Gretna were my next choice purely because their benefactor gave the D4L Trust £30,000 at the start of the season - which was £29,995 more than I gave them, and I'm a season-ticket holder - and without which, D4L wouldn't have been in a position to buy their requisite number of shares. Someone from the Trust will correct me if that's wrong.
I hope the cheque has been cashed . . . in case he reads some of the slagging his club gets on the official Dundee website. I don't much care for the "fairytale" stuff either but, out of respect for Mr Mileson's generosity towards my club, I'd have held my counsel. Plus, would you really have preferred Geoff Broon's club to have gone up? He didn't give us any free money!
Nah, good luck to Gretna. They won the league fair and square, the rules say they can ground share, and I really couldn't give a monkey's how many fans they take to games.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
Since there is little or no chance of SPL2 being in place anytime soon, can the SPL and the SFL please sort out the home fixtures between Dundee and United for next season? It's not difficult to sort out 2 teams from the one city. They can do it with the Old Firm, Hearts and Hibs but not Dundee and United. If they can't do a simple thing like that, then they should leave the fixtures to the SFA.
At last, a point we can agree on!
BJH |
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HulltoonBlue
Fringe Player
United Kingdom
99 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 08:33:19
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| The bottom six in the SPL are poor and Gretna could easily deal with those teams, the top 5 look nailed on again, Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen so if Brooks throws a few bob into Gretnas transfer kitty they could easily battle it out with probably Killie for the last top 6 spot. |
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n/a
deleted
1678 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 10:20:39
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| Good luck to Gretna. Won the league fair and square. I think what rankles with people is the 'fairytale' stuff you get in the press. I'd rather someone told the truth, that Gretna have done it because they have money, but that's not their fault so, again, good luck. |
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dundeederryboy82
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
531 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 11:31:54
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The Livingston fiasco I mentioned - the club being plunged into administration for continuing to live beyond their means. Much like ourselves and Motherwell. I feel that the same thing will undoubtedly happen to Gretna, as its plainly obvious that they will operate at a loss. They must surely be doing that now anyway.
I didn't say that they didn't deserve to win the league, I'm saying that I don't agree with chairmen buying success. The only reason that they won the 3rd and 2nd divisions is because Mileson threw money at SPL standard players so that he wouldn't end up with egg on his face.
And let's be honest, we never put up much of a fight did we. If it wasn't for the Saints along the road, they would have had the league wrapped up by February/March. St Johnstone impressed me with the way they played against Rangers, Celtic and Hibs in the cups this year. Looking at Gretna, I believe they got hammered 6-0 by Hibs? A sign of things to come, as they will offer very little in the way of footballing standards and crowds to other SPL teams.
I don't have anything against the man personally, but any chairman who tries to buy success is wrong. I'm not just talking about Scotland here. That also includes Abramovich, the Glazers, Randy Lerner and the new American owners of Liverpool. Many have tried it and failed. We tried it and failed. Livingston tried it, and failed. Motherwell tried it, and failed. There is a pattern emerging, and it is fast going to destroy our game.
"So you're saying that we should do away with meritocracy, and promote teams purely on the basis of how many fans they have? Really? Seriously? Small clubs are forever being slagged off for not spending money and showing no ambition - one comes along and does just that, and gets slaughtered for spending too much money and being too ambitious!!!" - No I'm not saying that. But let's just compare a situation with Motherwell finishing bottom of the league, and Falkirk won Div 1. They were not promoted because their stadium wasn't all-seater/met the stadia criteria. Is that not doing away with meritocracy? Why did Motherwell finish bottom? Because they were the worst team in the league that year. Falkirk win the league, but Motherwell are saved because of a stadium issue. It's a joke. One rule for one, and one for the others. It just sickens me the way that they are being hero-worshipped. They will be found out and when they are, I for one will be glad when their bubble well and truly bursts. |
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n/a
deleted
53 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 18:59:33
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Well done to gretna but I think they will come back down after the first season in the spl. Might not put the brakes on and end up in the 3rd division.
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Jock-F
Dundee Legend
SCOTLAND
948 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2007 : 20:26:57
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Petty - yes.
And downright nasty.
Good old Dundee attitude on view again.
Canna see anyone doing well.
Jock F
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DeeScribe
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
1522 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2007 : 00:52:44
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Banished to The Graveyard, I see! But we'll have another go at convincing dundeederryboy82 of the error of his ways . . .
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
The Livingston fiasco I mentioned - the club being plunged into administration for continuing to live beyond their means. Much like ourselves and Motherwell. I feel that the same thing will undoubtedly happen to Gretna, as its plainly obvious that they will operate at a loss. They must surely be doing that now anyway.
Not necessarily. If they're being entirely bankrolled (ie, it's all coming out of Mr Mileson's pockets, and no banks are involved) then they have no debt, so they can't go into administration. Whether he can achieve his aim of making the club self-financing is debatable, granted, but why should he be deprived of the opportunity to try? Right now, if he's willing to put the money in, that's his call.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
I don't agree with chairmen buying success.
Question. If Mr Mileson left Gretna tomorrow, and said he was taking over Dundee instead, with £5 million to spend unconditionally on new players, what would be your view on that? Would you turn him away? Or is it OK for a DUNDEE FC chairman to buy success?
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
Let's just compare a situation with Motherwell finishing bottom of the league, and Falkirk won Div 1. They were not promoted because their stadium wasn't all-seater/met the stadia criteria. Is that not doing away with meritocracy? Why did Motherwell finish bottom? Because they were the worst team in the league that year. Falkirk win the league, but Motherwell are saved because of a stadium issue. It's a joke. One rule for one, and one for the others. It just sickens me the way that they are being hero-worshipped.
I agree that Falkirk did deserve to be promoted at that time on merit, but the rules were different then - they knew what stadium criteria were required, and they couldn't meet them. Nor wanted to try. As it turned out, they did the right thing and played the long game, and are now an effective SPL side.
The rules about groundsharing and stadium criteria haven't been changed for Gretna, they were changed before that and, I say again, they've had no special treatment from the authorities. Fact. So they get a lot of positive Press? Is that such a big deal? Dundee got plenty of that when we were riding (relatively) high.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
They will be found out and when they are, I for one will be glad when their bubble well and truly bursts.
Petty or not? Rhetorical surely . . .
BJH |
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dundeederryboy82
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
531 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 10:31:18
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BJH - Is it OK for a Dundee chairman to buy success? Well, Peter and Jimmy tried and failed (as I stated in my last post) and look what state they left the club in. The fact is that no-one in their right mind would come along and invest £5 million into a 1st Division club. They are not going to get their investment back.
In regards to your point about Mileson ploughing his own money into Gretna, that all depends on whether or not he views Gretna as a business or as a football club. Surely there will come a time when he will take his money out, and when they are paying as much in wages as they are, Gretna will be in serious trouble.
You only have to look at what's happened to Leeds Utd in the last 5 years. 2002 - Champs Lge Semi-Finals. 2007 - Relegated to League 1. The same thing did NOT happen to us, as Peter and Jimmy never had the money to make it work. They used the bank's money, and made a mess of it, which they have acknowledged. It's only now that our club is starting to get back on a sound financial footing, and we cannot live beyond our means again.
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DeeScribe
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
1522 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2007 : 01:12:48
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quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
BJH - Is it OK for a Dundee chairman to buy success? Well, Peter and Jimmy tried and failed (as I stated in my last post) and look what state they left the club in. The fact is that no-one in their right mind would come along and invest £5 million into a 1st Division club. They are not going to get their investment back.
In regards to your point about Mileson ploughing his own money into Gretna, that all depends on whether or not he views Gretna as a business or as a football club. Surely there will come a time when he will take his money out, and when they are paying as much in wages as they are, Gretna will be in serious trouble.
You only have to look at what's happened to Leeds Utd in the last 5 years. 2002 - Champs Lge Semi-Finals. 2007 - Relegated to League 1. The same thing did NOT happen to us, as Peter and Jimmy never had the money to make it work. They used the bank's money, and made a mess of it, which they have acknowledged. It's only now that our club is starting to get back on a sound financial footing, and we cannot live beyond our means again.
Mr Mileson doesn't expect his money back. That's the point. The Marrs' situation was totally different, they borrowed the money, and it had to be paid back, as you have observed.
Mileson is Gretna. As long as he's with us, he'll prop Gretna up financially - and is entitled so to do. He has been trying to make provisions for the club to survive long term, and be self-sufficient (SPL money will assist this) after he's gone. And, no, it probably won't work very long then on their crowds. But ICT have made a pretty-decent fist of it on small attendances (only club in the league in the black, I believe) so it can be done.
I assume you were similarly aghast when Dundee tried to buy their way to, er, the top six a few years ago!
No reason why another Brooks Mileson shouldn't come along one day, and take a shine to Dundee and put his own money in. He'd have to suck up the three-grand-a-week bank penalty clause, but that would be small beer to a really big player.
The question still stands - because you didn't answer it, you're not a politician, are you, they never answer questions either! - if a genuine philanthropist like Mileson wanted to take over Dundee and, effectively, "buy promotion" at no cost to the club (ie, free money), would you turn them away?
BJH |
Edited by - DeeScribe on 10 May 2007 06:21:52 |
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dundeederryboy82
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
531 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2007 : 23:04:49
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BJH - was I aghast when Peter and Jimmy tried buying success? I don't know if aghast is the right word, but I was concerned yes. I knew that on our gates there was no way we could substantiate players like Caniggia, Nemsadze, Burley and Ravanelli. But yet, we still continued to pay them. If the club knew that the UEFA Cup run of 2003 was that critical, then why did they allow the signings of Burley and Ravanelli?? I know there are fans right now who will say "but Di Stefano said he had the money". Well, P&J had lawyers to investigate whether or not the man's intentions were genuine so they were just as foolish to believe the man as some fans were. We will never know now if he did, or didn't, have the money.
If another Brooks Mileson came in, and offered to buy our club would I turn him away? It's not up to me. If any interested party/ies could prove the finance, and actually develop the clubs fanbase and business then yes I would welcome fresh investment. I just want the club to do well. But not to see it go to the wall when the finance is pulled away. I'm only 24, and I've nearly seen this club die 3 times. Under Cook, Dixon and the Marrs. I don't want it to happen again. I've also seen them relegated twice, lose in cup finals twice, knocked out in semi-finals twice and knocked out of Europe twice.
The only cases of successful investment I can think of in recent years are Abramovich, the Glazers and Romanov. When all of these clubs have the money pulled away from them, there is going to be a danger to their survival, especially in the case of the Jambos.
To make it clear, I do not think it is right that Gretna were promoted. I do not think they should be in the SPL, or even the Scottish league. They were playing Unibond football in England 7 years ago!! When Mileson goes, or even before that, Gretna will go back the same way as they have come up. |
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DeeScribe
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
1522 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2007 : 01:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
I'm only 24, and I've nearly seen this club die 3 times. Under Cook, Dixon and the Marrs. I don't want it to happen again.
Dundee are always nearly dying, though! We're the ultimate football hypochondriac. I've been hanging around Dens longer than you've been born (yeah, I'd have thought I'd have found something better to do by now) and we're indestructible. We're having to endure a spot of penance at the moment for "our" profligacy, but the way I read the current financial situation, there's no reason why we shouldn't progress quite nicely IF we get out of this tough section. Even if we don't, the Good Ship DFC appears to be on an even keel.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
The only cases of successful investment I can think of in recent years are Abramovich, the Glazers and Romanov.
And Mileson! Three successive promotions remember.
quote:
Originally posted by dundeederryboy82
To make it clear, I do not think it is right that Gretna were promoted. I do not think they should be in the SPL, or even the Scottish league. They were playing Unibond football in England 7 years ago!! When Mileson goes, or even before that, Gretna will go back the same way as they have come up.
Oh, it's very clear what you think! But you're entitled to your view - and there are many (maybe the majority) who share that opinion. Just means there are lots of you who are wrong! I think Gretna deserve their place at the top table, and hope they stay up next season. We shall have to agree to differ on this one, otherwise we'll get dizzy.
BJH |
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dundeederryboy82
Dundee Legend
United Kingdom
531 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2007 : 16:00:04
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| BJH - agreed. I can't see them staying up, but if they do, I will hold my hands up and say well done. |
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